• Agile management

    Top down, bottom up, a manager's role with regards to (an) agile team(s) may have them left confused.Lyssa Atkins writes us a nice piece about that.

    A friend and i were having a discussion about this. He was spending some time during the 'final moments' of a sprint helping out a team directly.

    I asked:Why were you doing this work for them?

    Unfortunately, as with most things i ask, they see right through me and begin to get a little defensive, but the reason comes out and i'll paraphrase:

    "I'm in charge of making sure this doesn't fail"

    So his boss "Doesn't get it".

    or maybe doesn't get this

    or maybe doesn't get this

    or maybe this either

     

    Mike Vizdos gives us a little lesson about supporting a bottom up in two of his cartoons.

    http://www.implementingscrum.com/blog/2007/10/15/the-good-the-bad-the-ugly/

    and

    http://www.implementingscrum.com/blog/2007/10/30/combo-packing/

    Many people i show the first cartoon to probably quietly say "O my god, that's James".

    Read the whole blog, read it again, then ask yourself. Am i in a bad bottom up?

    Ok... are you?

    AND (classic mike vizdos)

     what are YOU (individually) going to do about it? (Remember, art of the possible)

    AND

    what is your team going to do?

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  • Type A Scrum: the other stuff

    I found this today and thought there's no better explanation on any of the stuff i had mentioned.

    In fact, i'm just going to refer back to that thing every day.

     

     

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  • Type A Scrum: A product backlog

    The product backlog

     

    In a nutshell, this is a prioritized and estimated list of features that the customer wants. Written in their own language. Estimated BY the people doing the work.(sometimes known as 'the team'..... not always in every organization though)

     

    When I worked at a helpdesk, this was a support queue. A work order queue. Basically each ticket/work order was a backlog item. They were automatically prioritized by the order in which they were created. However, you can bet your hard earned dollars we also prioritized them on whether or not their systems were completely down or not (down hard). IN the end, the customer got to choose what the problem was, they got to choose when it was completed. We were only able to decide when we were going to commit to fixing it and come up ideas of tasks to do to complete it. When the ticket was closed, it was completed… we were “Done” and we moved on to the next ticket.

     

    My first software job, the backlog was quite a bit less ‘rigid’ than the support queue. I came in for my first day and my boss pointed at his whiteboard. It was a collection of ‘things’ that needed done. Some were high level, some were tasks, very few were actually ‘software’ problems. For example: “Automate billing”, “create audit phone report”, ‘Create phone directory report”, “create eeoc report”, “create web service that exposes temp employee data”, “convert from old vendor software to new vendor software”, “refresh hardware”, “refresh ms office licenses”, “solve the IM client problem”. Anyhow, every month we’d meet and discuss the highest priorities and commit to an item. Every day we’d chat to eachother over IM and in person about our status and ‘swarm’ with the rest of the team for help. To me this was the ultimate ‘agile’ because it was goals and a cross functional team of people… the product was IT infrastructure for a staffing company.

     

    My second software job, the backlog was very unclear. We had some specifications (written in that crummy “The system shall…” language). We also had use cases for all the same stuff! However, ‘everything must go!” was preferred over prioritizing. Generally whatever the fire drill for the day was, ended up being your targeted work. I didn’t know how to work in this type of environment without clear goals so eventually I wrote my own backlog out of the specifications and just started working a subsection of functionality. So I had backlog items that were in spec format “the system shall…” with very detailed test cases from the use cases JJ. (of course I’d call the ‘customer’ for clarification on stuff, which always turned into a 5 hour discussion because I had no focus or previous experience with this.)

     

    What other options are there for a backlog?

    Well you could just do line item requirements, right? Yes. They work ok as long as they are independently testable. It would be nice if they span the whole architecture too. In fact, if you’re familiar with RUP or Crystal clear, they talk about a prototype that spans the whole architecture early on in development. Crystal calls this the ‘walking skeleton’.

     

    You could do use cases. I think they work pretty well actually because they’re self contained sets of functionality. However, in general I’ve never seen a use case that was ‘sized’ down appropriately for development. In general I’ve only ever seen them at a very high level. So the smaller the better!

     

    User Stories: I find Mike Cohn’s user stories applied book especially helpful in ‘getting’ user stories. XP suggests user stories but Mike Cohn defines them appropriately as (INVEST) independent, negotiable ,valuable, estimable, small, and testable. User stories make great backlog items (dare I say the best backlog items out of anything I’m familiar with).

     

    In the end once  you have the list of ‘Things” and features the customer wants. Now the hard part starts. How do you estimate them? Well there’s a few ways:

     

    Story points – these are relative point estimates. So if you have a functionality that is 2 points and you have another that is twice as big, it’s 4 points and so on. The points are made up by the team but some teams use ‘ideal team days’ to represent a point so that multiple teams can sync up on the same scale. Honestly, every team will have their own point system. The important thing is that everyone doing the work participates in estimating the size of it AND you estimate the whole size of the item, not just ‘your own little individual contribution to it’. One developer and tester I had constantly wanted to estimate ‘their involvement’ not the whole team’s involvement. This causes them to only see it from one side of things and makes your iteration plan worthless.

     

    Hours – I’ve seen some success with this, but very little. Teams look at the backlog item, figure out all the tasks, and figure up an off the cuff estimate of the total hours it’s going to take. Honestly there’s a lot less science in this than relative point estimating because effectively you’re thinking back to similar experiences, then thinking back to how much of your time was spent on it. At least with relative estimating all you have to do is compare that item and it’s point value then come to your new item’s point value in relation to that one. Some people just can’t think in relative terms though and need to associate hours to it. I won’t ever understand why, but I can acknowledge that and move on J go ahead and use hours, maybe it’ll work for you and it’s better than doing relative points WRONGLY. J

     

    Prioritize!!!

     

    This backlog, to be healthy must be prioritized, estimated, and written in business language. Dang, sounds like a tall order. When and where do I prioritize and estimate at? A not so easy answer is “all the time, anywhere”. The most important thing is, involve everyone who is likely to do the work. James, what a cop-out.

     

    Yea, I know so think about my examples above. My first software job, we just talked about priority during ‘sprint planning’ every month. For estimating, we’ve done some story writing workshops (I called them ongoing-planning meetings) and then we estimated the stories at a high level (t-shirt sizes: s, m, l, xl).

     

    So, what would you have to do to establish a true product backlog in your organization: Business features in business language that are estimated and prioritized before you start a sprint!

     

     

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  • Type A Scrum.

    Jeff Sutherland describes 3 types of scrums A, B and C in progressing levels of maturity.

    Jeff didn't invent this stuff btw, Toyota and a whole bunch of really smart japanese manufacturers did.

    Jeff just puts it into words and a nice little package/framework called scrum along side Ken Schwaber and Mike Beedle.

    Anyhow, the three types:

    scrumTypes.jpg

     

    Regarding Type A scrum :

    Documents (artifacts sometimes they're called):

    Sprint Backlog, Product Backlog, and Burn down chart.

    Ceremonies: Sprint planning, scrum(standup, daily) meeting, sprint review

    Roles: Product owner, Scrum master, team

     

    Technically, if you 'have' these at all, then you're doing scrum.

    However, do you have any improvements to make on them? sure, why wouldn't we :)

    Over the next few days, i'm going to start going down the list more in depth and reflective over the past few years of my utilizing 'scrum' (even when sometimes i didn't know that's what it was).

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  • Agility in operations

    I'm facing some interesting 'impediments' regarding operations with development work and it occurred to me there really is a cultural boundary to cross for large corprations as far as operations.

     

    we have things like big monolithic change management and control.

    surely there's an 'agile' way to do that

    Then think about server ownership.

    We share a server with 7 scrum teams for 1 single product and they ALL have administrator privelages on that... hmm do you see a problem there?

    What if each team had their own development, test, qa, and production areas that they had access to and ONLY access to. Then we could get rid of all the barriers like change controls and server restrictions/permissioning.

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  • Scrum (standup) meetings.

    So the standard questions are:

    What did you do since last scrum meeting?

    What will you do after this scrum meeting?

    what is in your way?

     

    imagine modifying those to this wording:

    What did you get "DONE" since last scrum meeting?

    What will you get "DONE" before next scrum meeting?

    What is keeping you from getting your NEXT task "DONE" right now?

     

    Think about it for a while, try asking it at your scrum meeting.

     

    try asking things like "So it's really done? it's checked in? it's refactored? it's tested and passed? there's no defects? it's ready to ship?"

    try asking things like "So i noticed you got nothing "DONE" yesterday, why didn't you get anything done yesterday?"

    This is hard. It takes courage.

     

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  • "I don't believe it"

    200px-YodaForceLift.jpg

    ... And that is why you fail.

     

    Mike Vizdos gives us a happy little cartoon and talk about it... go check it out, i'll wait.

    I see it quite a bit.

    ...but we can't refactor because we don't have unit tests

    ...but we can't unit test without refactoring.

    ...but we aren't like that company.

    ...but we're not an engineering company.

     

    I preach alot.

     

    AND

    I get called out on it.

    AND

    I guess sometimes you have to just do it for them to believe.

    ...think about Yoda.

     

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  • Project Burn charts, simplified.

    So you're on a project with the standard product manager who has the 50,000 foot view but refuses to take a look at the lower level feature functionality and play that "Real product owner" role of scrum.

    How do you make it clear that it is their BENEFIT to do so? Honestly, that's the question I keep asking myself because it's happening to me and I don't know how to make it visible.

    So first, here's the idea behind a project burn down/up.

    Your the PO and you want a widget thingy. To make the example more clear let's use a 'real' example. You want a website that allows people to post things for sale.

    You mark it down as

    "Website that allows people to post things for sale" aka BUC1

    you also want:

    "Website that allows people to use their mobile devices to save documents" aka BUC2

    you also want:

    "A social networking website." aka BUC3

    so let's say somehow you sit down in sprint planning and you say that the sizes are this:

    BUC1 : 700 hours

    BUC2 : 500 hours

    BUC3 : 500 hours

    and you all agree to work on BUC1 in sprint 1 (just bear with me)

    2 weeks in (with 5 employees at 100% committed to the sprint) is 400 hours but you are not "DONE" with BUC1.

    Your burndown would look like THIS:

    flatlineburndown.jpg

     

    What? but we worked 400 hours why didn't we get any credit for that?

    Because this is how earned value works. You did not get any of those items to "Done" so therefore you are 0% complete. You have absolutely NO certainty that any of those 400 hours were validated or assertable because NONE of that work met your definition of "Done" from the customer.

     

    Now let's say you have really smart develepers and they break down things into smaller and smaller use cases (or user stories, or requirements) or whatever, but IN THE END the PO is only thinking about the high level 50,000 foot view thing.

    You might get something like this

    BUC1.1 100hrs, BUC1.2 100hrs, BUC1.3 100hrs, BUC1.4 100hrs

    slightlybetterburndown.jpg

     

    Well, NOW you're getting a little more granularity on completion but the developers are breaking these down... you now have USURPED control of the project from the Product Owner and given it to the developers... in fact they are now the 'acting product owners'. They now have the full ability to drive you over a cliff by focusing too much on technical instead of BUSINESS VALUE.

    So then here's the other 'opportunity'. your product owner says "Well, i don't care about buc1.1, 1.2, 1.3... none of them give me any value at all until i have all 3 of them. Well, that's a fair statement to make, but are you sure?

    Let's look at it a little bit more closely. Suppose you make BUC (business use case) 1.2 and it's the part of our auction website where people are making payments electronically. And you know that in your organization anything to do with MONEY has to go through the legal department, and they are HORRIBLY slow. Wouldn't it be WISE, even smart, maybe even MORE VALUABLE to consider THAT particular use case at a HIGHER PRIORITY?

    Well, i'll let you ponder this, and if you can think of a way for me to convince my product owner to get engaged with our team, let me know :)

     

    some other info: Obviously, it's a failing scrum master who allows teams to commit to items that are BIGGER than their sprint knowingly (like i did :) :) )

    Think about these two comparisons in MS Project :)

    waterfallVagile.jpg

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  • Scrum sucks, it doesn't consider "people".

    I’ve recently taken to reading arguments against agility, to learn more about the common difficulties with implementing agility or more specifically scrum in organizations. These issues raised in this article interested me quite a bit and I felt like sharing them and responding to them in my usual ‘scrum-master-ly’ way… with questions.

     

    Wonderful to be involved in such projects.

    The problem I have with AGILE /SCRUM is that, like many methods, and indeed political doctrines such as communism (Das Kapital – Karl Marx), they look great on paper but fail to work in reality because they forget the human factor.

    “When this person read this part of the agile manifesto(if they did):

    Individuals and interactions over processes and tools

    Off the ‘Paper”, what “Reality” ways did they implement that to ensure it stuck? Did they have a decisive customer on the team acting as the product owner? Did they have a daily scrum meeting to keep eachother accountable and visible? Did they have a sprint planning meeting lead by the customer to commit to things? Did they create a set of team rules with the customer to go over the scrum values

    1.Commitment
    2. Focus
    3. Openness
    4. Respect
    5. Courage.
    ?

    By the way, nice job, compare it to communism, that'll get the right wingers against us. Just like those failed attempts at good ideas, people were the problem, but it's not a process that has to worry about people... it's the people implementing the proces. You try to blame the process... i'll say what about the people who tried and failed at implementing it, are they not the issue?”

     Any Paradigm, which has human interaction at its heart, will fail if human psychology is not understood and taken into account. The key aspects of human nature which IT development /project management methods have to take into account are no different to those at the heart of most modern economic theories:-

    - People will always put their own interests ahead of the interests of the group.

    Can you not align the business incentives with agile practices? Incent individuals into achieving team goals? Were you still incenting individuals to blame, lie, cheat and undermine eachother to get that next promotion because you gave them no alternatives to making money?

    - People are self-interested

    Can you not align the business incentives with agile practices? Incent individuals into achieving team goals? Were you still incenting individuals to blame, lie, cheat and undermine eachother to get that next promotion because you gave them no alternatives to making money?

     

    - Commercial production decisions are based on rational expectations.

    The rational expectations of who? Are you including the whole team when you say “rational”? Where in the agile manifesto (agile) or in scrum is it ever said that the product owner should be irrational?

    - Karl Popper’s “First law of collective action”. You can never get more than 5 people to agree on anything.

    AGILE /SCRUM has its own culture based on the best and worst of human nature, which often precedes its introduction into an organisation and often starts to imbed itself even before the implementation consultants have the caps off their marker pens. AGILE /SCRUM culture cuts across all of the points mentioned above and can from experience in the field turn often already sickly IT departments into meltdown.

    Notes from my diary on the views of people working within 3 self-proclaimed AGILE /SCRUM organisations, describe the culture they experienced in the following terms:-

    I should have stopped reading when you said “Self-proclaimed”, but I decided to continue any way. (whups that’s not a question). What makes you think these self-proclaimed agile teams were actually agile or actually using scrum? AND if they were in fact using adhering to agile values or using the scrum framework, then would they have found their organizational problems  if they weren’t? Was their inability to solve their organizational problems an agile/scrum issue? (Scrum’s job is to uncover problems, it’s the organization’s job to resolve them.)

    The Project Managers /SCRUM MASTERs turned themselves into Project Administrators. In each organisation this was characterised by a total lack of project plans, risk /issue management, quality management, change control, budgetary and status reporting. When questioned, all these managers felt they were responsible for the failure of their projects but had, under AGILE, no authority to direct or change anything. The team was responsible for delivery and they were responsible for taking the heat if it failed! They also felt they had to provide softly softly, and frankly patronising, Uncle Buck support for their project teams.

    Were they using scrum? Did they have a product owner? The product owner steers the team in scrum, and without one the team very well may drive itself off a cliff. And when I ask if they had one… I mean did they have a product owner who was involved and committed to the team and doing what a good scrum product owner should do on a daily basis?

    I was surprised to find in many cases that the Techncal staff conducted meetings with clients, leaving the Project Manager /SCRUM MASTER as a mute bystander, and totally ignoring risks, costs and commercial considerations. In all 3 organisations the managers, despite failure and chaos everywhere, were leaving for home on time and were mute concerning any questions concerning poor project delivery performance, instead choosing to hide behind the AGILE crucifix, with statements like “the team is responsible for this - go ask them they made the decisions. “Go talk to them! I am just following AGILE /SCRUM!”

    Again, did any of these projects have a committed product owner assigned to the scrum teams to make these decisions? Or was the team just ‘doing scrum’ without a participating product owner?

    Great we have a ship with no captain on deck being steered by the ships crew with any sinking / loss of life being the responsibility of the slumbering captain. No wonder they were in meltdown. CRAZY!

    The project teams had in almost all cases been taken over by strong personalities leading to mini dictatorships. These mini Hitler’s (senior technicians) kept all the most interesting development work for themselves and had often taken possession or laid claim to successfully delivered system deliverables leaving the rest of the mess to the other team members. These ‘dictators’ often seemed to accumulate more work than they could cope with and refused to hand it to others. This meant these projects slowly ground to a halt as all too frequently these tasks sat along the critical path.

    Did the team get taught on conflict resolution and open-ness? Scrum only has one designation for a team member and that is “Software Developer”… did scrum give them the title of ‘senior technician’? Did scrum imply they had any more authority than other team members? Did they have a product owner?

    Knowledge Monopolies. The ‘dictators’ detailed in (b) also, in the absence of documentation, had absolute control of the code should the developed system ever be launched. They would be the only people in the organisation with the knowledge to maintain and enhance the code going forward, thus maintaining their job security, and guaranteeing pay rises above the market rate. I really noted some serious arm bending on pay by these guys - squeezing in one case the budgets to such extent that previously turned down outsourcing deals were back on the burner.

    Did the team, when it was formed, set any ground rules? Did they define what “Done” meant? Was the documentation part of their definitnion of done? Was code documenting part of their definition of done? Did they have a collocated space for the team to work in? When this started happening did management do anything about it? (or the product owner?) Would you have known about it if you weren’t using scrum? Wouldn’t this happen in any methodology at that same company?

    Resource Management had vanished. With no proper project plans, except lists of team SPRINT deliverables at the most rudimentary level, no one knew how long a project would take and when resource would be needed, or could be released, between projects. The dictators appeared to want as many people in their teams as possible and were reluctant to let them go in order to maintain their status.

    Did the team not do estimating at any level? With estimated backlog items you should be able to easily plan out releases in a way more granular level 2-4 iterations out than you’d ever be able to with anything else I’ve ever used. Sure the farther out you are the less you know, but you should at least be able to identify “WHO YOU NEED”. Again, did management do anything about this once they realized this was happening? Did the product owner realize this was happening? Was the product owner looking ahead to future backlog items and finding out who they would need?

    Having had a taste of freedom the dictators were a hateful and aggressive bunch when asked about their managers /SCRUM MASTERS. They felt they were in charge and knew best, and had been liberated from the incompetent direction of their old management. They were without exception, never going to be directed by anyone except perhaps the client!!. Many of these dictators seemed to start and leave work as they pleased as an ultimate expression of their importance. No one is an island or a law unto himself /herself!

    That’s a pretty bold statement, you sound like many project managers I’ve talked to. Why shouldn’t the people doing the work have the most say in how the work is done? Do you know better than they do? Isn’t that arrogant? Were they wrong? Were their managers more competent to make decisions for them than they were? If so, why didn’t their managers give them training to become more competent? Wouldn’t it be feasible that any individual could be trained to be as competent as the manager? What’s wrong with that? You said above that people shouldn’t be hoarding knowledge or lording over their team members… does this not apply to “Managers”?

    Most of the talented young development staff were leaving because the dictators were hoarding work and only handing out uninteresting tasks to the new boys on the block.  This created a bunch of disaffected and unhappy people who had no idea what their future prospects were, or how to get promotion in such a CHAOTIC situation with so much posturing and territorial teeth showing between team members (like Gorilla packs in the forest) when they wanted to learn something or expand their remit.

    Why didn’t the scrum master stop this from happening? They should be enforcing the scrum values and one of those is respect. This doesn’t sound very respectful. Remember people and interactions over processes and tools.

    Each of these organisations had differing development approaches and tools from project to project. One team would be using Java J2EE and another using .Net C# and another struts, all within the same IT department, so that maintainability and resource management was impossible. Each AGILE scrum appeared to make up their own minds as to which constructs /tools etc to use in order to deliver the project. On close investigation, the decisions seemed to be based on what might enhance the capital value of their CVs as against what might enhance the capital value of their employers. Not having interchangeable staff between projects and maintenance and support crews is a real constraint on an IT department’s productivity and ability to control costs. Cutting edge technology means the replacement developers /tech designers were also going to be expensive.

    I can relate to this one,, we have this going on in our organization and we’re working to resolve it. Did any of these organizations recognize this problem and re-define “Done” to add certain toolsets in there? Did any of these organizations add constraints to their backlog on certain toolsets or products that would increase their CV? If the organization left it up to the team to decide and the team decided badly for the organization, then maybe the organization didn’t set clear enough expectations… after all it’s the Product Owner who determines the value of development, not the programmer… this should have been part of the product backlog or the definition of “Done”. This is a failure in implementing scrum properly and is fundamental.

    Clients feed up with never-ending, continuous involvement in IT projects. The clients could not afford to work so frequently with the IT project teams as envisaged under AGILE. In all cases client input was sporadic and inconsistent due to the duration of their required assistance right through the project life cycle. The clients could not afford the additional overhead cost. This is common with other development methods but with AGILE /SCRUM their involvement is more intensive, and for longer durations.

    I am not knocking AGILE /SCRUM for the sake of it, more sharing my observations of organisations claiming to be AGILE shops struggling to make AGILE /SCRUM work in the REAL WORLD. If any method fails to survive front line implementation (large IT projects /programmes), you have to start asking questions.

    All I can say is that when I have seen AGILE /SCRUM fail it is sad and painful for the professionals working in these places. If AGILE /SCRUM is to survive and have any chance of going forward, it has to be reworked so that it encourages the most valuable and productive aspects of human nature, whilst constraining the expression of some of its worst and most destructive aspects. This is the essence of people management.

    This is a common “problem” with implementing scrum or using agility… your customer just doesn’t want to be involved. This is a bad customer… they will probably make your life hell, but sometimes you cannot choose who your customer is. What you really need to do then is identify a PROXY to the customer to act as your product owner, then THIS person can be involved on a daily basis and then go talk to the customer at their level of involvement. I’ve talked about this with MY product manager… they just aren’t willing to ‘play the scrum game’ every day, so we have business analysts and QA people  to have their best interests in mind. Again, what did these organizations do to try to fix the problem?

     

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  • ponder this...

    Those with intellect can learn things quickly.

    Those with wisdom maintain what they've learned.

    Those with curiosity keep exploring what they do not know.

    Those with creativity keep innovating ways to use what they know.

    Those with ambition keep learning what they do not know.

    Those who aspire for greatness seek to utilize their intellect, wisdom, curiosity, creativity, and ambition to always be seeking improvement.

    Anyhow, you can't learn what you don't know... UNLESS YOU KNOW the list of things that you don't know. So i thought I would help some of you out.

    I was looking at this list and thinking... gee, do i know what all of this stuff is? Do i know how to do it? will i ever get a chance to use it? Does anyone at my work know number 15? Does anyone at my work know 23?

    If your director and CTO said to you "We want everyone to work on improvement in their profession"... "Get better at what you do" and you're not even doing 1/4th of the things on this list... or even trying to do more things off this list... then you're not really trying very hard to succeed at those goals.

    And if your CTO or CEO said, we're going to be more agile, wouldn't you try to find out what that meant?

    What is agile?

    Or would you just turn around, look at your underlings and say "more agile" then continue doing business as usual?

    But James! agile is a process! we just want to get work done, just let us work.

    Hang on... did you even go research what agile is? Where did you get the idea that 'agile' is a process? 

    In fact, one of the statements of the 'agile manifesto' is

    People and Interactions OVER processes and tools

     

    Whoa, wait a sec, James... you're telling me that agile is Against processes and tools? that's absurd!

    No, you have to weigh both sides and try to value the left side MORE.

    So if your processes and tools are getting in the WAY of People and Interactions... that is an IMPEDIMENT (or roadblock, or whatever you want to call it).

    So if you want to continue to be ignorant about what software agility is, feel free... I won't be angry. I might try to convince you for a while, but maybe I'll just laugh a little on the inside then continue on my merry way.

    Because, guess what... if your organization does not challenge you to drop the ignorance... that's their fault, not yours. Right?

    Anyhow, Sarcasm aside... if YOU really want to be more agile like your boss says, then start thinking about how YOU can change the culture at YOUR organization. Or tell your boss that you frankly can't be 'agile' in a 'non-agile' organization.

    Agility is a culture and set of values... processes and practices are 'things you do' not things you value. When choosing what you do... consider your values.

    If your company values are "be better than the other guy on my team so i can get the promotion over him"... agile will probably fail.

    If your company values are "hide information because information will result in me getting punished"... agility will probably not be fostered there.

    If your company is more concerned with setting hard dates and achieving them then setting clear goals and achieving those, then agility will probably not be interesting to them.... DESPITE WHAT THEY SAY TO YOUR FACE.

     

     

     

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